Kekgeek grades G2 vs Magic

[Wolvesfan21]

Keep in mind the 41st percentile at the rim would include a bunch of bigs that take large percentage of their shots at the rim and don't do much but just get the ball in the pain than the put it in. There are also wings that mostly all they do is make basket cuts or get buckets in transition etc. What is Ayo's percentile on drives when finishing at or near the rim? That's the number you are looking for and taking a guess that it's like 40%.

One thing to consider is the difference between Ayo and NAW. Ayo takes over 50% of his shots within 10 feet of the rim. NAW is a higher volume 3 point shooter. He is a less good finisher at the Rim over his career than Ayo which isn't too much of a surprise. Meanwhile once to take away shots at the rim and 3's the percentages drop off although he has some years they have been solid. Meanwhile Ayo in general has good to acceptable percentages at every level. Neither guy takes a lot of 2's outside of 10 feet but if Ayo takes them he makes pretty good percentage of them. All these things lead to Ayo having a career true shooting percentage of almost 60% which I'm pretty sure is pretty good for a guard.

Personally I think Ayo letting it fly from 3 more would be the thing I'd like to see more and it looks to me like the way he is shooting the ball this year that's possible. Before it seemed more of a set shot this year he looks more like he can just get it and let it go. I'd like the volume to be up but especially since he is a guy that attacks and that's good too I'm wanting him to be an even bigger threat from 3 and a guy you can toss it to and he can just get it up from there.

Overall I think this is a good discussion because I think Ayo is a guy with a chance to take another leap and become a really good offensive player. I'm talking a guy that with the opportunity could put up 20ppg and do it efficiently while also creating opportunities for other players.

Yeah more 3's can't hurt, as long as they are good looks of course.

Another Wolf that bugged me was Bazz, he would drive to the hoop like he's Giannis and bulldoze a guy over inevitably and get a charge seemingly every game or at least every other. When he didn't get the charge he still wasn't good.

BTW wasn't that the same draft? I think it was.

Ah so now it comes out you are still scared by watching Bazz. Personally I think TJ is way more like Bazz than Ayo. Of Course at this point I think TJ while still blindly attacks the basket he has a number of things going for him compared to Bazz. 1 he can actually dribble and attack from multiple spots on the floor. He is an absolute bluer with the ball. He is a far superior 3 point shooter. He also has an assist rate of at least double and the gap watching those guys is probably way more vast. I was a fan of Bazz and I'm still a little surprised how he just feel off and out of the league the way he did but he was a pretty flawed guy. He was also a pretty bad defender although I thought he last year he was moving in a more positive direction there. TJ doesn't have any physical reasons he can't guard wings. Bazz had some lack of quickness but his problem was he just wasn't good on that end.

Sometimes you need to take some good with the bad from players. Idk if this is still the case but Durant for years was kinda terrible passing the ball when he had it in transition. It was like he would turn into some terrible basketball player passing to a teammate once he was inside the 3 point line. Sure he is a HOF but also you expect that type of guy to not kinda routinely chunk the ball into the stands in transition. TJ needs to find at least another gear but he does look to pass and he needs to play to learn what works and what doesn't. It's nice to have multiple guys that actually attack the basket now. It used to be basically Edwards and that's it. Now we have Ayo Edwards TJ Kuminga and Jaden is more of a threat to at least do his thing in the paint than he was. Ball is more of a threat to get there than the PGs during Finch's tenure.

Maybe I'm both scarred and scared from watching Bazz, IDK. I think you meant scarred and yes I am.

He was strong for is build, but you're right, he just wasn't very good in the end. Him and Randle are probably the closest comparisons, though Randle was far more skilled obviously. Randle is like a super skilled and stronger version of Bazz.

And WTF am I watching in this Vikes game, Laquon Treadwell is beating us? Next Bazz will come back and beat our Wolves.

[Lipoli390]

Ayo had a great game. One thing I forgot to mention last game that I've seen too often from him since his arrival is he loves to push the pace and I love it. However, he does a bit too often force bad shots at the rim in doing so, I think he and we'd be much more effective if he pulled the ball out after getting to the rim when the shot isn't there, potentially dishing to a nice trailer on the 3 ball.

He's not Giannis where he can with his length and strength just bully guys and dunk on them (how many are though ), so he could be a bit more selective with his shots and be a more positive player overall.

Ayo isn’t Giannis but he’s an exceptional finisher at the rim and is an elite shooter inside the arc. Last season he ranked 6th among all NBA players last season in 2-point FG percentage. He ranked first among NBA guards and effectively ranked ahead of generational mid-range scorers like DeMar DeRozan and Kevin Durant. So yes, Ayo SHOULD be attacking and taking those shots at the rim.


Rank Player Position Team 2-Point FG%
1 Giannis Antetokounmpo Forward Miami Heat 62.4%
2 Zion Williamson Forward New Orleans Pelicans 60.0%
3 Jaden McDaniels Forward Minnesota Timberwolves 58.7%
4 Michael Porter Jr. Forward Denver Nuggets 58.5%
5 Bobby Portis Forward Milwaukee Bucks 57.9%
6 Ayo Dosunmu Guard Bulls / Timberwolves 56.3%
7 DeMar DeRozan Guard/Forward Denver Nuggets 55.8%
8 Stephen Curry Guard Golden State Warriors 55.2%
9 Shai Gilgeous-Alexander Guard Oklahoma City Thunder 54.8%
10 Kevin Durant Forward Houston Rockets 54.1%

I'm curious what data you're looking at, and also you have conflated rim attempts with 2p FGAs.

If we filter down to strictly just rim FG%, per databallers, Ayo was 62.3% which was a 41 percentile rate last year. In other words, not very good. I still like the pressure he puts on the rim and he's a legit 3 level scorer, but he's pretty mid as a finisher.

For whatever it's worth, Ant and Jaden tied for best on the team and among the best in the league with 71.5% at the rim

I wasn’t conflating. I mentioned that Ayo is an exceptional finisher at the rim AND an elite shooter inside the arc. I gave his stats as a shooter inside the arc where he ranked 6th among non-centers. I had those stats and didn’t bother to look further to confirm what I already knew. But I did look that stat up tonight and saw that Ayo ranked 9th in the entire league among wings and guards in percentage at the rim:

Rank Player Position Team Rim Completion %
1 Shai Gilgeous-Alexander Guard Oklahoma City Thunder 70.4%
2 Kyrie Irving Guard Dallas Mavericks 68.8%
3 Austin Reaves Guard Los Angeles Lakers 67.1%
4 Jalen Williams Wing / Forward Oklahoma City Thunder 66.8%
5 De'Aaron Fox Guard Sacramento Kings 65.5%
6 Anthony Edwards Guard / Wing Minnesota Timberwolves 64.2%
7 Devin Booker Guard Phoenix Suns 63.9%
8 Donovan Mitchell Guard Cleveland Cavaliers 62.5%
9 Ayo Dosunmu Guard Timberwolves / Bulls 61.8%
10 Tyrese Maxey Guard Philadelphia 76ers 59.3%

Dosunmu’s #9 rank in rim finishing last season is especially impressive given his volume metrics. He operated in the 98th percentile for rim attempts per 75 possessions last season, meaning he finished with elite efficiency while facing heavily packed defense in the paint.

Jim Peterson and others talked last year about Ayo’s excellent accuracy at the time. So yes, we should want him driving the lane and putting up shots at the time. Ayo rare guard who is highly efficient in the paint, in the midrange and from outside the 3-point arc.

[Lipoli390]

Keep in mind the 41st percentile at the rim would include a bunch of bigs that take large percentage of their shots at the rim and don't do much but just get the ball in the pain than the put it in. There are also wings that mostly all they do is make basket cuts or get buckets in transition etc. What is Ayo's percentile on drives when finishing at or near the rim? That's the number you are looking for and taking a guess that it's like 40%.

One thing to consider is the difference between Ayo and NAW. Ayo takes over 50% of his shots within 10 feet of the rim. NAW is a higher volume 3 point shooter. He is a less good finisher at the Rim over his career than Ayo which isn't too much of a surprise. Meanwhile once to take away shots at the rim and 3's the percentages drop off although he has some years they have been solid. Meanwhile Ayo in general has good to acceptable percentages at every level. Neither guy takes a lot of 2's outside of 10 feet but if Ayo takes them he makes pretty good percentage of them. All these things lead to Ayo having a career true shooting percentage of almost 60% which I'm pretty sure is pretty good for a guard.

Personally I think Ayo letting it fly from 3 more would be the thing I'd like to see more and it looks to me like the way he is shooting the ball this year that's possible. Before it seemed more of a set shot this year he looks more like he can just get it and let it go. I'd like the volume to be up but especially since he is a guy that attacks and that's good too I'm wanting him to be an even bigger threat from 3 and a guy you can toss it to and he can just get it up from there.

Overall I think this is a good discussion because I think Ayo is a guy with a chance to take another leap and become a really good offensive player. I'm talking a guy that with the opportunity could put up 20ppg and do it efficiently while also creating opportunities for other players.

Yeah more 3's can't hurt, as long as they are good looks of course.

Another Wolf that bugged me was Bazz, he would drive to the hoop like he's Giannis and bulldoze a guy over inevitably and get a charge seemingly every game or at least every other. When he didn't get the charge he still wasn't good.

BTW wasn't that the same draft? I think it was.

Ah so now it comes out you are still scared by watching Bazz. Personally I think TJ is way more like Bazz than Ayo. Of Course at this point I think TJ while still blindly attacks the basket he has a number of things going for him compared to Bazz. 1 he can actually dribble and attack from multiple spots on the floor. He is an absolute bluer with the ball. He is a far superior 3 point shooter. He also has an assist rate of at least double and the gap watching those guys is probably way more vast. I was a fan of Bazz and I'm still a little surprised how he just feel off and out of the league the way he did but he was a pretty flawed guy. He was also a pretty bad defender although I thought he last year he was moving in a more positive direction there. TJ doesn't have any physical reasons he can't guard wings. Bazz had some lack of quickness but his problem was he just wasn't good on that end.

Sometimes you need to take some good with the bad from players. Idk if this is still the case but Durant for years was kinda terrible passing the ball when he had it in transition. It was like he would turn into some terrible basketball player passing to a teammate once he was inside the 3 point line. Sure he is a HOF but also you expect that type of guy to not kinda routinely chunk the ball into the stands in transition. TJ needs to find at least another gear but he does look to pass and he needs to play to learn what works and what doesn't. It's nice to have multiple guys that actually attack the basket now. It used to be basically Edwards and that's it. Now we have Ayo Edwards TJ Kuminga and Jaden is more of a threat to at least do his thing in the paint than he was. Ball is more of a threat to get there than the PGs during Finch's tenure.

Yes, TSJ is more like Bazz than Ayo. But let’s be clear about something. Bazz was a terrible NBA player in contrast to TSJ who is looking at the very least like a very solid NBA player. My email to Flip that caused him to call and get together with me was a scathing critique of his decision to draft Bazz at the end of his rookie year. The only good thing about the Bazz pick was that it gave me the chance to get to know Flip - something that would never have happened if Flip had drafted Giannis instead. Bazz is not worthy of comparison to any of our current players.

[Monster]

Yeah more 3's can't hurt, as long as they are good looks of course.

Another Wolf that bugged me was Bazz, he would drive to the hoop like he's Giannis and bulldoze a guy over inevitably and get a charge seemingly every game or at least every other. When he didn't get the charge he still wasn't good.

BTW wasn't that the same draft? I think it was.

Ah so now it comes out you are still scared by watching Bazz. Personally I think TJ is way more like Bazz than Ayo. Of Course at this point I think TJ while still blindly attacks the basket he has a number of things going for him compared to Bazz. 1 he can actually dribble and attack from multiple spots on the floor. He is an absolute bluer with the ball. He is a far superior 3 point shooter. He also has an assist rate of at least double and the gap watching those guys is probably way more vast. I was a fan of Bazz and I'm still a little surprised how he just feel off and out of the league the way he did but he was a pretty flawed guy. He was also a pretty bad defender although I thought he last year he was moving in a more positive direction there. TJ doesn't have any physical reasons he can't guard wings. Bazz had some lack of quickness but his problem was he just wasn't good on that end.

Sometimes you need to take some good with the bad from players. Idk if this is still the case but Durant for years was kinda terrible passing the ball when he had it in transition. It was like he would turn into some terrible basketball player passing to a teammate once he was inside the 3 point line. Sure he is a HOF but also you expect that type of guy to not kinda routinely chunk the ball into the stands in transition. TJ needs to find at least another gear but he does look to pass and he needs to play to learn what works and what doesn't. It's nice to have multiple guys that actually attack the basket now. It used to be basically Edwards and that's it. Now we have Ayo Edwards TJ Kuminga and Jaden is more of a threat to at least do his thing in the paint than he was. Ball is more of a threat to get there than the PGs during Finch's tenure.

Maybe I'm both scarred and scared from watching Bazz, IDK. I think you meant scarred and yes I am.

He was strong for is build, but you're right, he just wasn't very good in the end. Him and Randle are probably the closest comparisons, though Randle was far more skilled obviously. Randle is like a super skilled and stronger version of Bazz.

And WTF am I watching in this Vikes game, Laquon Treadwell is beating us? Next Bazz will come back and beat our Wolves.

Randle has his flaws but comparing him to a Bazz is honestly laughable. Randle has been an all NBA player twice. Bazz started 16 NBA games and ended up out of the league at what 25 years old? Randle is also bigger, stronger and also more athletic too. Bazz was at best a 1 left handed trick pony. There were multiple reasons why various coaches never ended up playing Bazz as a small ball PF even though in theory it made sense to put him there. Randle is a maddening player at times but he is unique can be a legit playmaker at his position. Bazz was a below average ball handler for a wing and wasn't a guy whipping passes to anyone once he got near the paint.

Props to Treadwell for continuing to grind all these years being a special teams guy and basically a blocking WR. I know it's a job but he must really love the game to keep it up. It was an interesting situation that played out when he ended up not giving up his jersey number to Keenan Allen.

[Wolvesfan21]

Ah so now it comes out you are still scared by watching Bazz. Personally I think TJ is way more like Bazz than Ayo. Of Course at this point I think TJ while still blindly attacks the basket he has a number of things going for him compared to Bazz. 1 he can actually dribble and attack from multiple spots on the floor. He is an absolute bluer with the ball. He is a far superior 3 point shooter. He also has an assist rate of at least double and the gap watching those guys is probably way more vast. I was a fan of Bazz and I'm still a little surprised how he just feel off and out of the league the way he did but he was a pretty flawed guy. He was also a pretty bad defender although I thought he last year he was moving in a more positive direction there. TJ doesn't have any physical reasons he can't guard wings. Bazz had some lack of quickness but his problem was he just wasn't good on that end.

Sometimes you need to take some good with the bad from players. Idk if this is still the case but Durant for years was kinda terrible passing the ball when he had it in transition. It was like he would turn into some terrible basketball player passing to a teammate once he was inside the 3 point line. Sure he is a HOF but also you expect that type of guy to not kinda routinely chunk the ball into the stands in transition. TJ needs to find at least another gear but he does look to pass and he needs to play to learn what works and what doesn't. It's nice to have multiple guys that actually attack the basket now. It used to be basically Edwards and that's it. Now we have Ayo Edwards TJ Kuminga and Jaden is more of a threat to at least do his thing in the paint than he was. Ball is more of a threat to get there than the PGs during Finch's tenure.

Maybe I'm both scarred and scared from watching Bazz, IDK. I think you meant scarred and yes I am.

He was strong for is build, but you're right, he just wasn't very good in the end. Him and Randle are probably the closest comparisons, though Randle was far more skilled obviously. Randle is like a super skilled and stronger version of Bazz.

And WTF am I watching in this Vikes game, Laquon Treadwell is beating us? Next Bazz will come back and beat our Wolves.

Randle has his flaws but comparing him to a Bazz is honestly laughable. Randle has been an all NBA player twice. Bazz started 16 NBA games and ended up out of the league at what 25 years old? Randle is also bigger, stronger and also more athletic too. Bazz was at best a 1 left handed trick pony. There were multiple reasons why various coaches never ended up playing Bazz as a small ball PF even though in theory it made sense to put him there. Randle is a maddening player at times but he is unique can be a legit playmaker at his position. Bazz was a below average ball handler for a wing and wasn't a guy whipping passes to anyone once he got near the paint.

Props to Treadwell for continuing to grind all these years being a special teams guy and basically a blocking WR. I know it's a job but he must really love the game to keep it up. It was an interesting situation that played out when he ended up not giving up his jersey number to Keenan Allen.

OH of course, I never said they were in the same league skill wise, I said they are not, were not. I had to look up Bazz and he's been playing everywhere around the world. From Venezuela it looks now, from Lebanon and China. Even a couple other middle eastern counties. He's been around and around, crazy amount of teams. Probably a interesting life, even if you're not making good money. Playing basketball even for a minimal amount of money and the lifestyle of seeing the world, not all that bad really. Heck I'd do it if I could. Sounds fun.

And it is amazing Treadwell is still in the league after all these years. I actually wanted to draft him. I think he was probably just not quick enough and not mature enough at that age though, obviously didn't work out for where he was picked. But he was a decently skilled player and had a very long career.