The Ascent Begins - Wolves at Pistons GDT

[Coolbreeze44]

Wolvesfan is right about getting rid of KAT, it was the right thing to do. Only problem is it should have been done 3-4 years earlier and we sure as hell would have gotten more than Randle and DDV. I was telling you all that we should have traded KAT about the same time we made the trade for DLO. It would have been a great move at the time, instead we waited and got fleeced by the Knicks.

I'm telling you again that we need to move on from Ant. Not this season, but sometime after the draft in the summer. I admit it would take balls to pull it off, but Ant is going to flame out much sooner than you think. Strike while the iron is hot for once.

You're still mad about his off the court stuff. It's clouding your judgement. I too wanted to trade KAT years ago, then he started playing a bit better and I was on the fence. We were in agreement I know at one time. Now that he's up there in age, injuries piling up and supermax to the moon, we didn't get much in return.

The real issue with this team isn't really just Randle. It's the other 5 guys playing below their levels. That is just abnormal. Like who would have predicted we'd be .500ish right now? None of us. I think even the lowest prediction was Abe at 46-48 or something. I even looked at shooting percentages and some basic math. Guys shoot up to their norms and we have a top 8 offense. Maybe top 5 with some improvement. Easily top 4 team in the West or better.

We need guys to start playing like they are capable or move on and start seeing if these other young guys can play/develop. Just because the others are not up to par you don't blow it up.

Just the though of trading Ant is just ridiculous. Now the odds are we probably we won't win a Chip. The odds are always in your favor unless you get a obvious LeBron type. Ant isn't quite on that LeBron level though. Age for Age. He's more on that second tier.

The thought of trading Ant is not ridiculous. Was trading Carmelo Anthony ridiculous? Be more objective and less fan boy when you think about this team.

[Lipoli390]

We got 6 guys rotting on the bench already. We don't need more players. Now if your argument was to use those picks on another guy or guys. IDK, we had a pretty damn good year last year. Rudy is a HOF player and won DPOY last year on OUR team. Like sure he's not playing well right now. But it's not over yet.

I think some fans were more then happy with winning 20 games and playing the lotto every year. I'd rather have a winning team.

We were a team on the rise that won 46 games the season before TC arrived, not a 20-win team. I never envisioned sticking with the same exact players going forward from there, but there were better uses of the assets we gave up for Rudy and we didn’t have to give up all those assets to improve on this team’s 46 wins. The improvement from Ant and Jaden alone would have elevated this team. Look around at the best teams in the League and you’ll see that none of them gave up some similar to what we gave up for a player like Rudy and put themselves in the financial and on-court situation we’re in right now.

Bridges was traded for a similar deal. Picks are not worth much to be honest. If they were we wouldn't have sucked for 15 years straight. We had picks! Now if for some reason one of those picks is top say 3. Then I'll eat my words. You're not going to get a superstar for picks either. You need most of the time a top 5 if not top pick in the draft.

You typically championship contenders with picks. The Bulls drafting MJ, Pippen and Horace Grant. The Lakers drafting Magic and Worthy. The Jazz drafting Stockton and Malone. The Spurs drafting Duncan, Parker and Manu. The Pistons drafting Thomas and Dumars. The Warriors drafting Curry, Thompson and Green. The Nuggets drafting Jokic, Murray and Porter. The Celtics drafting Tatum and Brown. You rarely make your team a contender by trading five 1st round picks plus players for one 30+ year old player and strapping your team financially in the process. You never make your team a contender when the player you swap all those assets for is a one-way center with bad hands who can’t score if he’s more than a foot from the basket on a 30+ million dollar per year contract regardless of how good he is defensively - especially in today’s NBA.

I’ll add that many of the key players drafted by contenders were not top 5 picks, including Curry, Thompson, Green, Jokic, Porter, Dumars, Stockton, Malone, Kobe, Parker, and Manu.

[Phenom]

Of course. Add Philly and Atlanta to that list as well.

Those are the consensus best run organizations in the league. If they would build with Ant, so should the Wolves.

Most of those teams have players who supersede Ant. They wouldn't build around him, they already have a better centerpiece.

They wouldn't trade for him if they were starting from scratch right now?

[Crazysauce]

I agree with you totally Lip. Not only are picks give you the ability to hit on a star here and there but they give you flexibility to adjust your team. We have no ability to do any of that like you stated. The fact that anyone is wanting to trade away Ant is so wild to me.

Our hopes literally lie with our current players figuring it out. We are likely stuck with this team. I honestly think it's really time to fire Finch. He's not getting what is expected out of these guys. Our offense is awful. If I were gm I would have a meeting with the players and the coach. I would tell them if things don't change over the next few weeks we will be moving on from Finch. Let him know he is coaching for his job. If the players don't want to play hard for him we move on. But we are not a serious franchise. Just the joke of the league.

[Wolvesfan21]

We were a team on the rise that won 46 games the season before TC arrived, not a 20-win team. I never envisioned sticking with the same exact players going forward from there, but there were better uses of the assets we gave up for Rudy and we didn’t have to give up all those assets to improve on this team’s 46 wins. The improvement from Ant and Jaden alone would have elevated this team. Look around at the best teams in the League and you’ll see that none of them gave up some similar to what we gave up for a player like Rudy and put themselves in the financial and on-court situation we’re in right now.

Bridges was traded for a similar deal. Picks are not worth much to be honest. If they were we wouldn't have sucked for 15 years straight. We had picks! Now if for some reason one of those picks is top say 3. Then I'll eat my words. You're not going to get a superstar for picks either. You need most of the time a top 5 if not top pick in the draft.

You typically championship contenders with picks. The Bulls drafting MJ, Pippen and Horace Grant. The Lakers drafting Magic and Worthy. The Jazz drafting Stockton and Malone. The Spurs drafting Duncan, Parker and Manu. The Pistons drafting Thomas and Dumars. The Warriors drafting Curry, Thompson and Green. The Nuggets drafting Jokic, Murray and Porter. The Celtics drafting Tatum and Brown. You rarely make your team a contender by trading five 1st round picks plus players for one 30+ year old player and strapping your team financially in the process. You never make your team a contender when the player you swap all those assets for is a one-way center with bad hands who can’t score if he’s more than a foot from the basket on a 30+ million dollar per year contract regardless of how good he is defensively - especially in today’s NBA.

I’ll add that many of the key players drafted by contenders were not top 5 picks, including Curry, Thompson, Green, Jokic, Porter, Dumars, Stockton, Malone, Kobe, Parker, and Manu.

Sure and we already got a handful on our roster needing playing time. The chance of hitting on mid to late 1st rounders is just very low and we already have a clogged roster. That will pan out over the next couple years though, but we certainly don't need a pick every year.

We took a big swing last year and missed winning a chip. I respect the swing though as a Wolves fan we've only had two. So far this season we probably need another one to get going on track.

[Wolvesfan21]

Wolvesfan is right about getting rid of KAT, it was the right thing to do. Only problem is it should have been done 3-4 years earlier and we sure as hell would have gotten more than Randle and DDV. I was telling you all that we should have traded KAT about the same time we made the trade for DLO. It would have been a great move at the time, instead we waited and got fleeced by the Knicks.

I'm telling you again that we need to move on from Ant. Not this season, but sometime after the draft in the summer. I admit it would take balls to pull it off, but Ant is going to flame out much sooner than you think. Strike while the iron is hot for once.

You're still mad about his off the court stuff. It's clouding your judgement. I too wanted to trade KAT years ago, then he started playing a bit better and I was on the fence. We were in agreement I know at one time. Now that he's up there in age, injuries piling up and supermax to the moon, we didn't get much in return.

The real issue with this team isn't really just Randle. It's the other 5 guys playing below their levels. That is just abnormal. Like who would have predicted we'd be .500ish right now? None of us. I think even the lowest prediction was Abe at 46-48 or something. I even looked at shooting percentages and some basic math. Guys shoot up to their norms and we have a top 8 offense. Maybe top 5 with some improvement. Easily top 4 team in the West or better.

We need guys to start playing like they are capable or move on and start seeing if these other young guys can play/develop. Just because the others are not up to par you don't blow it up.

Just the though of trading Ant is just ridiculous. Now the odds are we probably we won't win a Chip. The odds are always in your favor unless you get a obvious LeBron type. Ant isn't quite on that LeBron level though. Age for Age. He's more on that second tier.

The thought of trading Ant is not ridiculous. Was trading Carmelo Anthony ridiculous? Be more objective and less fan boy when you think about this team.

Carmelo could never play defense. Big time difference. Carmelo was never a dog. Ant's a dog.

What constitutes a championship winning NBA player in your mind? Tatum? Curry? MJ? They didn't win chips at 23. You would have traded them too soon. lol

Ant is going to be the best player in the NBA in 3-4 years. Just flush this roster over a bit and get things going in the right direction. We'll be a title contender soon enough.

[AbeVigodaLive]

EVERY team is looking for a transcendent talent. They're not easy to find. And high draft picks doesn't necessarily mean you're going to get one. Wolves fans know the perils of the Promise of Hope more than almost anyone.

The Timberwolves have a potential transcendent star. Right now.

That means they must exhaust all options to see how they can help him reach that exalted status. This has been an odd season, for both the Wolves and Edwards.

In some ways, we can look at Edwards and say he hasn't kept improving at the same rate as he has previously. But then you look at something like 3fg... and it's pretty damn amazing. Certainly too soon to dump a guy who's shown growth in the past and has so far improved one very important part of his game so much.

So it's imperative that the team figures out why the rest of his game hasn't improved (or why it's regressed) as much. Is it on the player? Or, the environment?

Certainly, there are things we can cite for both, depending on our perspective. Yes, Edwards can be immature. And yes... trading the league's best floor spacing big for a ball-dominant, dribble heavy iso big changes the court entirely for the Wolves.

The team isn't winning anything as constructed. But Edwards MIGHT be a transcendent star.

So there's no real choice right now.

- Put a new team around the potential transcendent star that fits him better. If it's still not working, then you might have a problem with the star.

But you absolutely cannot trade the potential transcendent star and start over from scratch. Especially with as much turnover as the team put around him at the last moment this season.

[FNG]

I missed last night's game because I was still on my 24-hour drive back to Tucson...don't think I'll watch the replay, although it would be fun to see Ant light it up. But I also see a problem there. Let's review the last three days:

1) The Wolves lose a close one to the world champs with almost everyone except Ant having a good game.
2) Post game, Ant responds with a grumpy answer to Jace's comment about the beautiful basketball in the 3rd quarter when Ant had 5 assists (plus a few hockey assists). Says he doesn't want to play that style of basketball, because he's a scorer not a passer. Says there's "nothing he can do" when he's doubled, as almost every superstar spits out his coffee reading that absurdity. The national media ruthlessly rips Ant for his stupid comments.
3) Ant comes out and proves he's a scorer and not a passer by scoring 53 points with only 2 assists and 6 turnovers.
4) Result: in a mirror opposite from the Celtics game, every other Wolves player other than Ant sucks, and we lose by double digits to a middling East conference team missing it's second best player on the second night of a BTB.
5)Hmm...any conclusions, anyone?

Many interesting comments in this thread, and I'm reluctant to weigh in after a game I didn't watch. I will say I'm intrigued by what Cool is saying though.

[BloopOracle]

It's time to transition to a 5 out offensive team

[Lipoli390]

Just such an unwatchable team at the moment.

Gobert and Randle have been useless. Conley unplayable.

We desperately need a competent point guard to pull the strings and take the pressure off Ant.

I've become convinced that Connelly had it exactly right with the Dillingham pick. The problem is he's a year or two late with it, as it's clear he needs more seasoning and physical maturing.

But it's become increasingly apparent to me that we need more than a good game manager PG like Conley was last season or Tyus Jones (not that Tyus wouldn't be an upgrade though!). We need another ball handler that can break down a defense and score at a high level or pass. Doesn't have to be elite, but needs to be in that Darius Garland/Fred Van Fleet range.

Exactly, Q. That’s what I’ve been saying for a long time. Darius Garland would be a perfect fit. I think Dilly can be that sort and caliber of player, but he’ll need a few years to get there given his young age and weight. That’s the sort of player TC should have pursued when he got here instead of betting the farm on Rudy Gobert.