The Ascent Begins - Wolves at Pistons GDT

[thedoper]

We have waited since the inception of this franchise for a transcendent go to scorer who wants the ball when the game matters. Now we’re 500 in what was a transitional year mandated from the front office and the sky is falling. It cant get more Wolves than this. Ant is still great, and the cupboard is not bare. Like Kyle said last year when you’re in the shit you just have to keep going. Maybe Finch isnt the answer, maybe Connelly has a vision that we dont see. I personally dont see a down year this year as a huge detriment. The front office intentionally chose greater long term roster flexibility over talent at the beginning of this season. A dip in team success was written on the wall. The level of panic amongst Wolves fans because of past trauma may be the real issue here.

[Q-is-here]

I missed last night's game because I was still on my 24-hour drive back to Tucson...don't think I'll watch the replay, although it would be fun to see Ant light it up. But I also see a problem there. Let's review the last three days:

1) The Wolves lose a close one to the world champs with almost everyone except Ant having a good game.
2) Post game, Ant responds with a grumpy answer to Jace's comment about the beautiful basketball in the 3rd quarter when Ant had 5 assists (plus a few hockey assists). Says he doesn't want to play that style of basketball, because he's a scorer not a passer. Says there's "nothing he can do" when he's doubled, as almost every superstar spits out his coffee reading that absurdity. The national media ruthlessly rips Ant for his stupid comments.
3) Ant comes out and proves he's a scorer and not a passer by scoring 53 points with only 2 assists and 6 turnovers.
4) Result: in a mirror opposite from the Celtics game, every other Wolves player other than Ant sucks, and we lose by double digits to a middling East conference team missing it's second best player on the second night of a BTB.
5)Hmm...any conclusions, anyone?

Many interesting comments in this thread, and I'm reluctant to weigh in after a game I didn't watch. I will say I'm intrigued by what Cool is saying though.

While I appreciate different perspectives, the reality is the front office is not trading Ant anytime soon. So you and Cool can continue to speculate about it and tell the rest of us of how flawed and immature of a player Ant is (and you aren't completely wrong about that), but you are only playing pretend if you think he's actually going to get traded within the next year or two.

Wolves fans, including myself, have eventually come to dislike the flaws our stars have had over the years. With KG, it was his inability to take over a game offensively. With KAT it was his lack of poise under pressure and martyr complex. And now with Ant it's his immaturity and lack of elite passing.

There are only three or four truly transcendent players that come along every 10-15 years. Odds are we aren't going to get one of those guys and we have 35 years worth of proof.

[Lipoli390]

Edwards had 53 points on 50% FG shooting, including 10-15 from behind the arc. Meanwhile his teammates collectively were a miserable 6-25 from behind the arc. Only one other player scored in double figures and that guy, Randle, only scored 17. Our $40 million 7’1” center, going against a 3rd year 6’10 center, had 6 points, 6 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 steals, 2 blocks and 3 turnovers. No center who isn’t featured in the offense should have 3 turnovers. Conley had 0 points and 5 assists.

No one concerned about how poorly the Wolves are performing this season should be concerned about Ant’s play except to the extent it reflects an absolutely terrible mix of players around him. We went to the Western Conference finals last season with Ant as our best player. This season we don’t have KAT or Slo Mo and Conley isn’t close to the same player he was last season. The difference between last season and this one is on the Wolves front office. They traded KAT for Randle and DDV, let Slo Mo go and put way too much stock in a 37 year old PG. They traded KAT and let Slo Mo go for financial reasons tied to the Gobert deal. Jaden’s regression or lack of progress offensively is a bit of a mystery, but I think it’s probably attributable to losing KAT and Father Time overtaking Mike Conley.

TC was very fortunate to inherit Edwards, Jaden and Naz from Rosas. He also inherited KAT from Flip. I applaud TC for bringing in NAW, but his failure to patiently continue to build around Ant with a supporting cast that maximizes Ant’s strengths was a monumental screw up. TC seems to have a good eye for under-the-radar young talent. He sucks at trades even though the Conley trade was a good one. Now let’s see whether the young talent TC has brought in - Dilly, TSJ, Minott, Miller and Clark come through over the next few years. Those guys plus Ant, Naz, NAW, and Dilly, along with some other additions, could emerge as a really good team in a couple years. This current team with Randle and Rudy isn’t salvageable.

[Q-is-here]

Just such an unwatchable team at the moment.

Gobert and Randle have been useless. Conley unplayable.

We desperately need a competent point guard to pull the strings and take the pressure off Ant.

I've become convinced that Connelly had it exactly right with the Dillingham pick. The problem is he's a year or two late with it, as it's clear he needs more seasoning and physical maturing.

But it's become increasingly apparent to me that we need more than a good game manager PG like Conley was last season or Tyus Jones (not that Tyus wouldn't be an upgrade though!). We need another ball handler that can break down a defense and score at a high level or pass. Doesn't have to be elite, but needs to be in that Darius Garland/Fred Van Fleet range.

Exactly, Q. That’s what I’ve been saying for a long time. Darius Garland would be a perfect fit. I think Dilly can be that sort and caliber of player, but he’ll need a few years to get there given his young age and weight. That’s the sort of player TC should have pursued when he got here instead of betting the farm on Rudy Gobert.

Yet somehow Dillingham was acquired via a lottery pick by the supposedly asset-less/they mortgaged-the-future Wolves!

I think some of you are way too pessimistic about the assets we have and the moves that can be made to improve the team, excluding Ant.

[Lipoli390]

I've become convinced that Connelly had it exactly right with the Dillingham pick. The problem is he's a year or two late with it, as it's clear he needs more seasoning and physical maturing.

But it's become increasingly apparent to me that we need more than a good game manager PG like Conley was last season or Tyus Jones (not that Tyus wouldn't be an upgrade though!). We need another ball handler that can break down a defense and score at a high level or pass. Doesn't have to be elite, but needs to be in that Darius Garland/Fred Van Fleet range.

Exactly, Q. That’s what I’ve been saying for a long time. Darius Garland would be a perfect fit. I think Dilly can be that sort and caliber of player, but he’ll need a few years to get there given his young age and weight. That’s the sort of player TC should have pursued when he got here instead of betting the farm on Rudy Gobert.

Yet somehow Dillingham was acquired via a lottery pick by the supposedly asset-less/they mortgaged-the-future Wolves!

I think some of you are way too pessimistic about the assets we have and the moves that can be made to improve the team, excluding Ant.

Q - I think some of us are just being realistic. Moving up for Dilly required TC to further deplete our future draft stock. I’m glad TC made the move, which I consider a really good one, but Dilly didn’t come without a cost and we don’t yet know whether Dilly will pan out. I like all the young talent TC has acquired but our the organization’s ability to make moves to improve the team is severely constrained. We can’t trade any of our future 1st round picks. We can’t do sign-and-trades. We can’t aggregate players in trades. We can’t make trades if the incoming salaries are as much as 1 cent more than the salary of our outgoing player. We can’t sign free agents using any salary exception other than the vet minimum. Rudy is probably untradeable with his extended contract. Randle probably can’t be traded without attaching the Detroit pick we acquired in the KAT deal. If we’re going to trade Randle, Naz or NAW, we’ll have to do it by the February deadline because of their contract situations and the CBA limitations on second apron teams.

Again, I’m not pessimistic. As long as we have Ant we have a chance to fix this thing. But I’m not going to be blind to the challenges this organization faces because of what can be fairly characterized as some bad decision-making by the current front office regime. As I’ve noted in other posts, the salvation might lie in the ability of the current front office regime to identify and acquire young (often under-the-radar or overlooked) talent. That’s what TC did in Denver with the Jokic and Porter picks. In fact, the reason I’m not pessimistic is because we have Dilly, TSJ, Minott, Miller and Clark developing in our organization thanks to TC. Meanwhile, Ant is still very young. DDV is just entering the prime of his career on a very team-friendly contract. I still think Naz is just scratching the surface of his abilities. He just needs to be turned loose as our starting PF with a group that’s properly constructed to maximize the strengths of all the players, especially Ant.

I’m frustrated by what I’m seeing from this team and especially frustrated because I saw this coming the moment the Gobert deal was announced. I’m ready to turn the page to Wolves 2.0. I’d like to see that transition begin with a deal before the February deadline. Unfortunately, after going through dozens of trade scenarios involving Randle I just can’t see a realistic deal that works for the Wolves within the 2nd-apron constrains of the CBA. And I don’t trust TC with trades in the first place. So we’ll see.

[FNG]

I missed last night's game because I was still on my 24-hour drive back to Tucson...don't think I'll watch the replay, although it would be fun to see Ant light it up. But I also see a problem there. Let's review the last three days:

1) The Wolves lose a close one to the world champs with almost everyone except Ant having a good game.
2) Post game, Ant responds with a grumpy answer to Jace's comment about the beautiful basketball in the 3rd quarter when Ant had 5 assists (plus a few hockey assists). Says he doesn't want to play that style of basketball, because he's a scorer not a passer. Says there's "nothing he can do" when he's doubled, as almost every superstar spits out his coffee reading that absurdity. The national media ruthlessly rips Ant for his stupid comments.
3) Ant comes out and proves he's a scorer and not a passer by scoring 53 points with only 2 assists and 6 turnovers.
4) Result: in a mirror opposite from the Celtics game, every other Wolves player other than Ant sucks, and we lose by double digits to a middling East conference team missing it's second best player on the second night of a BTB.
5)Hmm...any conclusions, anyone?

Many interesting comments in this thread, and I'm reluctant to weigh in after a game I didn't watch. I will say I'm intrigued by what Cool is saying though.

While I appreciate different perspectives, the reality is the front office is not trading Ant anytime soon. So you and Cool can continue to speculate about it and tell the rest of us of how flawed and immature of a player Ant is (and you aren't completely wrong about that), but you are only playing pretend if you think he's actually going to get traded within the next year or two.

Wolves fans, including myself, have eventually come to dislike the flaws our stars have had over the years. With KG, it was his inability to take over a game offensively. With KAT it was his lack of poise under pressure and martyr complex. And now with Ant it's his immaturity and lack of elite passing.

There are only three or four truly transcendent players that come along every 10-15 years. Odds are we aren't going to get one of those guys and we have 35 years worth of proof.

Oh, I agree the Wolves are not going to move on from Ant, Q...just saying I would be open to it for the sake of discussion. 2 days of listening to way too much NBA Radio in the car on a long drive has left me grumpy and quite pessimistic about this team...to a man, all the pundits were stunned at the profound stupidity of his comments after the Boston game, and I don't think we have discussed those comments enough in this forum. It's painful to hear the national media mercilessly rip the guy we're leaning on as our future. And while I didn't see last night's game, it had a "I'll show them I'm a scorer, not a passer" feel to it...and that kind of attitude leads to double digit losses to teams like Detroit.

But for those who did watch the game last night, I'm curious as to how Ant was able to take 31 shots and score 53 points just 2 days after saying there was "nothing he could do" if defenses double him. I'm guessing it had to be one of two things, and I would prefer the second because it would show some growth. Either,

1) For some reason Detroit bizarrely decided not to double Ant, or
2) Ant did what many of us have been hoping he can learn to do. Rather than pausing for five seconds after getting the ball at the top of the key and letting the opponent trap him, instead making an SGA-like immediate read and beating the defense (either with a quick drive, shot or pass) before the defense could react.

Curious as to what happened last night. Fun to read about him getting 53 points, but not happy about a double digit loss to a middling team.

[Q-is-here]

I missed last night's game because I was still on my 24-hour drive back to Tucson...don't think I'll watch the replay, although it would be fun to see Ant light it up. But I also see a problem there. Let's review the last three days:

1) The Wolves lose a close one to the world champs with almost everyone except Ant having a good game.
2) Post game, Ant responds with a grumpy answer to Jace's comment about the beautiful basketball in the 3rd quarter when Ant had 5 assists (plus a few hockey assists). Says he doesn't want to play that style of basketball, because he's a scorer not a passer. Says there's "nothing he can do" when he's doubled, as almost every superstar spits out his coffee reading that absurdity. The national media ruthlessly rips Ant for his stupid comments.
3) Ant comes out and proves he's a scorer and not a passer by scoring 53 points with only 2 assists and 6 turnovers.
4) Result: in a mirror opposite from the Celtics game, every other Wolves player other than Ant sucks, and we lose by double digits to a middling East conference team missing it's second best player on the second night of a BTB.
5)Hmm...any conclusions, anyone?

Many interesting comments in this thread, and I'm reluctant to weigh in after a game I didn't watch. I will say I'm intrigued by what Cool is saying though.

While I appreciate different perspectives, the reality is the front office is not trading Ant anytime soon. So you and Cool can continue to speculate about it and tell the rest of us of how flawed and immature of a player Ant is (and you aren't completely wrong about that), but you are only playing pretend if you think he's actually going to get traded within the next year or two.

Wolves fans, including myself, have eventually come to dislike the flaws our stars have had over the years. With KG, it was his inability to take over a game offensively. With KAT it was his lack of poise under pressure and martyr complex. And now with Ant it's his immaturity and lack of elite passing.

There are only three or four truly transcendent players that come along every 10-15 years. Odds are we aren't going to get one of those guys and we have 35 years worth of proof.

Oh, I agree the Wolves are not going to move on from Ant, Q...just saying I would be open to it for the sake of discussion. 2 days of listening to way too much NBA Radio in the car on a long drive has left me grumpy and quite pessimistic about this team...to a man, all the pundits were stunned at the profound stupidity of his comments after the Boston game, and I don't think we have discussed those comments enough in this forum. It's painful to hear the national media mercilessly rip the guy we're leaning on as our future. And while I didn't see last night's game, it had a "I'll show them I'm a scorer, not a passer" feel to it...and that kind of attitude leads to double digit losses to teams like Detroit.

But for those who did watch the game last night, I'm curious as to how Ant was able to take 31 shots and score 53 points just 2 days after saying there was "nothing he could do" if defenses double him. I'm guessing it had to be one of two things, and I would prefer the second because it would show some growth. Either,

1) For some reason Detroit bizarrely decided not to double Ant, or
2) Ant did what many of us have been hoping he can learn to do. Rather than pausing for five seconds after getting the ball at the top of the key and letting the opponent trap him, instead making an SGA-like immediate read and beating the defense (either with a quick drive, shot or pass) before the defense could react.

Curious as to what happened last night. Fun to read about him getting 53 points, but not happy about a double digit loss to a middling team.

It was three things: 1) Detroit wasn't as aggressive with their doubling/trapping, 2) Ant got off the ball pretty quickly when they did double/trap him, and 3) he was just super hot from outside the arc.

Ant had a number of hockey assists thanks to getting off the ball. But other times he did what he was supposed to and then Rudy or someone else made an errant pass off his pass. That's not Ant's fault.

Put all of Ant's flaws aside for a second. The Wolves literally have one of the five best shooters AND five best downhill scorers in the NBA wrapped into one player. That's one hell of a weapon as a starting point to building an elite offense. Oh, and that player is a plus defender as well, so you don't have to "hide" him in the same ways other stars get hidden.

The good news is that some of the players we currently have can very much fit with Ant. Others are aging out or just aren't good fits. We don't have to turn over the entire team to figure this out!

[FNG]

While I appreciate different perspectives, the reality is the front office is not trading Ant anytime soon. So you and Cool can continue to speculate about it and tell the rest of us of how flawed and immature of a player Ant is (and you aren't completely wrong about that), but you are only playing pretend if you think he's actually going to get traded within the next year or two.

Wolves fans, including myself, have eventually come to dislike the flaws our stars have had over the years. With KG, it was his inability to take over a game offensively. With KAT it was his lack of poise under pressure and martyr complex. And now with Ant it's his immaturity and lack of elite passing.

There are only three or four truly transcendent players that come along every 10-15 years. Odds are we aren't going to get one of those guys and we have 35 years worth of proof.

Oh, I agree the Wolves are not going to move on from Ant, Q...just saying I would be open to it for the sake of discussion. 2 days of listening to way too much NBA Radio in the car on a long drive has left me grumpy and quite pessimistic about this team...to a man, all the pundits were stunned at the profound stupidity of his comments after the Boston game, and I don't think we have discussed those comments enough in this forum. It's painful to hear the national media mercilessly rip the guy we're leaning on as our future. And while I didn't see last night's game, it had a "I'll show them I'm a scorer, not a passer" feel to it...and that kind of attitude leads to double digit losses to teams like Detroit.

But for those who did watch the game last night, I'm curious as to how Ant was able to take 31 shots and score 53 points just 2 days after saying there was "nothing he could do" if defenses double him. I'm guessing it had to be one of two things, and I would prefer the second because it would show some growth. Either,

1) For some reason Detroit bizarrely decided not to double Ant, or
2) Ant did what many of us have been hoping he can learn to do. Rather than pausing for five seconds after getting the ball at the top of the key and letting the opponent trap him, instead making an SGA-like immediate read and beating the defense (either with a quick drive, shot or pass) before the defense could react.

Curious as to what happened last night. Fun to read about him getting 53 points, but not happy about a double digit loss to a middling team.

It was three things: 1) Detroit wasn't as aggressive with their doubling/trapping, 2) Ant got off the ball pretty quickly when they did double/trap him, and 3) he was just super hot from outside the arc.

Ant had a number of hockey assists thanks to getting off the ball. But other times he did what he was supposed to and then Rudy or someone else made an errant pass off his pass. That's not Ant's fault.

Put all of Ant's flaws aside for a second. The Wolves literally have one of the five best shooters AND five best downhill scorers in the NBA wrapped into one player. That's one hell of a weapon as a starting point to building an elite offense. Oh, and that player is a plus defender as well, so you don't have to "hide" him in the same ways other stars get hidden.

The good news is that some of the players we currently have can very much fit with Ant. Others are aging out or just aren't good fits. We don't have to turn over the entire team to figure this out!

Thanks Q...I'm especially encouraged by your second point, that Ant was quicker to react when doubles came at him. Dane Moore and Kyle Thiege (both often Ant apologists) were especially ruthless in analyzing his post Celtic game comments, and said the issue was not the players around him, but his own inability to react quickly. I think he is going to see aggressive double teams the rest of the season (I mean, he practically wrote our opponents' defensive game plans with his post game comments!), and while we may have a lot of discouraging games, the good news is it should give Ant a great chance to grow.
I'm also hoping Finchie throws double teams at him at every practice, so contrary to his "nothing I can do" speech, he learns there are indeed things he can do to beat doubles. You're correct that he may be both a top five downhill player and shooter. If he can become a quicker decision maker, he may actually reach his enormously high ceiling.

[DNatagal]

I truly think Finch and his 8 man rotation are the easiest fix. The "deep bench" that the pundits were writing about in the preseason are stuck in the end of the bench. Minott deserves more playing time. Conley should be benched and only playing 15 min or less a game. This is on the coaching staff.

Wolves fans always hope for player development, but it never seems to happen here.

It's time for a change in leadership, whether that means Finch playing the bench more, or someone new coaching the team.

[Coolbreeze44]

I'm not afraid to say it. He's a dumbass. Tell me one other dumbass in the last 40 years who has led his team to an NBA title. I highly doubt he gets traded anytime soon and totally get why few on this board would even consider it. But therein lies the problem.