Which QB?

[Monster]

Vikes bring back Wentz. I guess it's fine, probably a good choice really as Brosmer even considering minimal game reps looked so bad, it's hard to have confidence he flips a switch. Wentz doesn't really need training camp or preseason reps so we can focus on Kyler and JJ. And if both go down we don't have to turn to Brosmer again.

Maybe KOC really likes Wentz more then JJ but honestly, I think that would be foolish to have Wentz QB2 unless JJ makes zero progress which would be hard to believe. I still would like to have a door open to the longer term upside of JJ I guess is the bottom line.

My take after thinking about if for a few hours was the Vikings wanted to actually have the QB spot locked up with players that could help them win games. Wentz at Q3 is pretty good insurance. They gave him a little more money to get him here but he probably also sees this as a kind of a good opportunity and good landing spot. He could stick here for a couple years as the backup and...who knows maybe he ends up having to start 3 games and stays healthy and looks good and at the very least becomes a high end backup again.

Enough about Wentz but now the Vikings have a legit starting QB a guy in McCarthy I think they still do believe in if he can stay healthy and Wentz who it sounds like they really like and he is bought in so he isn't a problem. Brosmer...I'm like him but he can just be on the PS or some team can claim him or whatever. I think it's unlikely he is gonna show anything that's gonna make a team select him to their roster. I know the oline was trash last year but he didn't look ready at all.

From everything I've read and heard it sounds like what I thought was why the Vikings signed Wentz. When they had worthwhile QB play they won games. That's not a shock. I still think KOC pushed for more in the QB room than McCarthy and Howell and an undrafted rookie. Maybe they also felt better about Rypien and he regressed and wasn't an option. They clearly learned their lesson.

[Monster]

If I were to bet right now. I see a KOC / Kyler offense not working well. The things KOC wants to do most is the things Kyler is worst at! Deep on time accurate passes. Hitting that 25 yard out or in cut, thats just not what Kyler is good at.

However there are things Kyler is good at like you say. He is super evasive, nice pocket presence, scrambles and makes nice off schedule throws on the run. But I kind of feel like Jets is also bad at that. How often in his career has Jets made great plays off scramble drills? It's not what he does. His best ability is on time elite routes. Not backyard ball either.

I'm not saying it ultimately wouldn't work decently well. Superbowl though? I don't think so barring a top 1-3 defense.

Saying all this, I'm still fine bringing in Kyler. With JJ missing 3/4ths of his games and not exactly lighting it up either, he's not a guy we can fully commit to. I can see a scenario where Kyler gets hurt and JJ comes in to save the day too.

We simply can't have a crappy QB room like we did last year. We need a better 1,2 and 3 QB play!

Jefferson is excellent at coming down with balls just thrown up to him. Kirk Cousins would just throw him up balls so Murray and him will be just fine.

How familiar were you with what Sam Darnold was good at before he landed here? Murray is wildly more accomplished than Sam was and at like nearly a tenth of the price. Super bowl? Yeah I'm not expecting that but I don't really worry about that I'm usually looking to get into the playoffs and see what happens.

Let's go back to the defense that you brought up. I think it's interesting that Allen and Hargrave landed decently sized deals this off-season which probably is good since it might offset some of the money we gave them. Will the Vikings have enough DT depth to offset those loses? If Flores has found another solid starting level CB for a relatively low price that's gonna help but what happens at safety? I was a little surprised they were willing to put the tender they did on Pace. Anyway I trust Flores and I think they have been fairly successful at finding d line guys. On the other hand if the offense is even middle of the road this year that will help that defense which was put in a tough position last season.

Oh and we need a punter. I support them not signing him to a deal it was less than a year ago Wright was in a competition to keep his job and might not have kept it if the other guy wasn't so bad at being a holder. Happy for Wright and hope he does well I have been a fan of his but 4 million a year for a guy that hasn't been consistent is a little pricey.

It's still fairly early in the off-season and they have plenty of draft picks to add to the roster. I like they were able to keep Jones for less for another year. I do hope they add a young RB this off-season. Emmitt Johnson would be fun but that's a homer pick.

For me it's not SB or bust, but I want to see a path to contention. I'm not sure Kyler is that player, I kind of doubt he is to be frank. Making the playoffs and getting whooped just doesn't do anything for me, show me a path to be a contender so I can get on board. My biggest fear is Kyler is just OK and we pay him big money, that will signal another 3-4 years wasted. You just can't win it all overpaying players.

It even goes back to when Teddy got hurt and they wasted (in my view) a 1st round pick in the next years draft on Bradford. I was fine riding with Hill and maybe just winning 5 games. Bradford was already being replaced by the Eagles. They had enough of him, Spielman the idiot gave up our next years first. I wanted to wait and draft a QB with that pick. Guess who went around where we could have been picking? Patrick freaking Mahomes is who! We could have drafted Mahomes and likely won a SB or multiple SB's! Myself I like Deshaun Watson who also went like 12th that draft and of course played like a baller till his massage fiasco. Heck maybe we win it all with Watson? Zim had a good to great D most years, heck we went to the NFC champ game with Keenum. With Mahomes or Watson guess what? Who knows? Not sucking balls and getting blown out is what.

Then that turns into overpaying Kirk since we were drafting late and had no QB. And on the story goes. No SB, no path to one either.

I think it's fair to be worried about them overpaying Wentz and being stuck in a way. I think you have to look at the KOC era and they really haven't been willing to pay anyone crazy money. Are they really gonna be willing to give Murray like 50 million a year or something? Maybe but I kinda doubt it.

I also think that Rob B is probably gonna get the GM job. I think he seems to be more careful with spending and assets. That's definitely been the case this off-season which isn't exactly a surprise. I don't think he will be a guy that doesn't go for it at all but I think he is gonna be more careful in some ways. He has seen how it's gone down all the things you mentioned and more.

One of the biggest assets of the organization is KOC has made vet QBs better than they were. If he does it with Murray why pay him a boatload of money? Sign another failed starter etc...assuming McCarthy isn't the guy. It's like having Zimmer as your DC and then spending a 1st round pick on a CB every year. Why is the genius getting high end draft picks every year? He should be able to get more out of guys than having a high end draft picks all the time. I'm not saying you shouldn't draft good players but...yeah. It would also be nice to see some more wins on offense in terms of undervalued position players having success. Nailor is one. I can't think of anyone else that really stands out. I'm a big fan of Xavier Scott at RB but idk if he is more than just a decent depth guy that you can roster on a PS. If he was a really worthwhile special teams guy that can kinda do a little of everything when he gets snaps at RB I would call that a win but it's not exactly a big win. Maybe Tai Felton or someone else will break through at WR. Maybe Brandel will be a really solid C this year. Maybe a TE like Ben Sims shows he is a pretty good player in the same idea that Mundt was a higher end depth guy. I think Sims has a higher end as a Receiver though but maybe not at everything else. QB is a pretty big deal and if KOC can get a ton of value out of that position I'll take it but it feels like we should be getting more elsewhere too. It does seem like they have added some more coaches on the offensive side of the ball which may help.

[Wolvesfan21]

Vikes bring back Wentz. I guess it's fine, probably a good choice really as Brosmer even considering minimal game reps looked so bad, it's hard to have confidence he flips a switch. Wentz doesn't really need training camp or preseason reps so we can focus on Kyler and JJ. And if both go down we don't have to turn to Brosmer again.

Maybe KOC really likes Wentz more then JJ but honestly, I think that would be foolish to have Wentz QB2 unless JJ makes zero progress which would be hard to believe. I still would like to have a door open to the longer term upside of JJ I guess is the bottom line.

My take after thinking about if for a few hours was the Vikings wanted to actually have the QB spot locked up with players that could help them win games. Wentz at Q3 is pretty good insurance. They gave him a little more money to get him here but he probably also sees this as a kind of a good opportunity and good landing spot. He could stick here for a couple years as the backup and...who knows maybe he ends up having to start 3 games and stays healthy and looks good and at the very least becomes a high end backup again.

Enough about Wentz but now the Vikings have a legit starting QB a guy in McCarthy I think they still do believe in if he can stay healthy and Wentz who it sounds like they really like and he is bought in so he isn't a problem. Brosmer...I'm like him but he can just be on the PS or some team can claim him or whatever. I think it's unlikely he is gonna show anything that's gonna make a team select him to their roster. I know the oline was trash last year but he didn't look ready at all.

From everything I've read and heard it sounds like what I thought was why the Vikings signed Wentz. When they had worthwhile QB play they won games. That's not a shock. I still think KOC pushed for more in the QB room than McCarthy and Howell and an undrafted rookie. Maybe they also felt better about Rypien and he regressed and wasn't an option. They clearly learned their lesson.

KOC did a couple interviews and basically said what I said about having 3 viable QB's and having competition.

Two of his 4 years here we've had to play multiple guys, when Kirk got hurt with the achilles, it was Hall and Dobbs and Mullens, then last year of course those three (JJ, Max, Wentz). With good QB play we've been in that low end SB contender bracket (KOC said in the dance or playoffs). Certainly not a favorite but had a shot.

I think thats the main reason why Kwesi got fired, he screwed up the QB spot last year royally. I don't think anyone was super thrilled with JJ/Wentz/Brosmer going into the year (except maybe those three QB's!!!). I minimally wanted Jones back for sure.

I was fine letting Darnold walk and do we win the SB if we keep him? I actually don't think so. I think we had a better shot with Jones actually. Seattle kind of insulated Darnold with elite defense and a heavy run game, and KOC has not liked to run the ball enough!

Saying that I was pumped to watch JJ play, and he let me down a bit too much. I wanted to see more but considering how injured he's been it's kind of understandable. I kept thinking last year he's two years away to maybe being a good QB. So bringing in Kyler and Wentz back makes sense. You can't just hand the starting job to JJ when he's not proven enough. If he balls out then great, but we'll see. And considering that both Kyler and JJ get hurt often, Wentz is good insurance too.

[Wolvesfan21]

Jefferson is excellent at coming down with balls just thrown up to him. Kirk Cousins would just throw him up balls so Murray and him will be just fine.

How familiar were you with what Sam Darnold was good at before he landed here? Murray is wildly more accomplished than Sam was and at like nearly a tenth of the price. Super bowl? Yeah I'm not expecting that but I don't really worry about that I'm usually looking to get into the playoffs and see what happens.

Let's go back to the defense that you brought up. I think it's interesting that Allen and Hargrave landed decently sized deals this off-season which probably is good since it might offset some of the money we gave them. Will the Vikings have enough DT depth to offset those loses? If Flores has found another solid starting level CB for a relatively low price that's gonna help but what happens at safety? I was a little surprised they were willing to put the tender they did on Pace. Anyway I trust Flores and I think they have been fairly successful at finding d line guys. On the other hand if the offense is even middle of the road this year that will help that defense which was put in a tough position last season.

Oh and we need a punter. I support them not signing him to a deal it was less than a year ago Wright was in a competition to keep his job and might not have kept it if the other guy wasn't so bad at being a holder. Happy for Wright and hope he does well I have been a fan of his but 4 million a year for a guy that hasn't been consistent is a little pricey.

It's still fairly early in the off-season and they have plenty of draft picks to add to the roster. I like they were able to keep Jones for less for another year. I do hope they add a young RB this off-season. Emmitt Johnson would be fun but that's a homer pick.

For me it's not SB or bust, but I want to see a path to contention. I'm not sure Kyler is that player, I kind of doubt he is to be frank. Making the playoffs and getting whooped just doesn't do anything for me, show me a path to be a contender so I can get on board. My biggest fear is Kyler is just OK and we pay him big money, that will signal another 3-4 years wasted. You just can't win it all overpaying players.

It even goes back to when Teddy got hurt and they wasted (in my view) a 1st round pick in the next years draft on Bradford. I was fine riding with Hill and maybe just winning 5 games. Bradford was already being replaced by the Eagles. They had enough of him, Spielman the idiot gave up our next years first. I wanted to wait and draft a QB with that pick. Guess who went around where we could have been picking? Patrick freaking Mahomes is who! We could have drafted Mahomes and likely won a SB or multiple SB's! Myself I like Deshaun Watson who also went like 12th that draft and of course played like a baller till his massage fiasco. Heck maybe we win it all with Watson? Zim had a good to great D most years, heck we went to the NFC champ game with Keenum. With Mahomes or Watson guess what? Who knows? Not sucking balls and getting blown out is what.

Then that turns into overpaying Kirk since we were drafting late and had no QB. And on the story goes. No SB, no path to one either.

I think it's fair to be worried about them overpaying Wentz and being stuck in a way. I think you have to look at the KOC era and they really haven't been willing to pay anyone crazy money. Are they really gonna be willing to give Murray like 50 million a year or something? Maybe but I kinda doubt it.

I also think that Rob B is probably gonna get the GM job. I think he seems to be more careful with spending and assets. That's definitely been the case this off-season which isn't exactly a surprise. I don't think he will be a guy that doesn't go for it at all but I think he is gonna be more careful in some ways. He has seen how it's gone down all the things you mentioned and more.

One of the biggest assets of the organization is KOC has made vet QBs better than they were. If he does it with Murray why pay him a boatload of money? Sign another failed starter et.c..assuming McCarthy isn't the guy. It's like having Zimmer as your DC and then spending a 1st round pick on a CB every year. Why is the genius getting high end draft picks every year? He should be able to get more out of guys than having a high end draft picks all the time. I'm not saying you shouldn't draft good players but...yeah. It would also be nice to see some more wins on offense in terms of undervalued position players having success. Nailor is one. I can't think of anyone else that really stands out. I'm a big fan of Xavier Scott at RB but idk if he is more than just a decent depth guy that you can roster on a PS. If he was a really worthwhile special teams guy that can kinda do a little of everything when he gets snaps at RB I would call that a win but it's not exactly a big win. Maybe Tai Felton or someone else will break through at WR. Maybe Brandel will be a really solid C this year. Maybe a TE like Ben Sims shows he is a pretty good player in the same idea that Mundt was a higher end depth guy. I think Sims has a higher end as a Receiver though but maybe not at everything else. QB is a pretty big deal and if KOC can get a ton of value out of that position I'll take it but it feels like we should be getting more elsewhere too. It does seem like they have added some more coaches on the offensive side of the ball which may help.

That's exactly my thought! Why pay Kyler a bunch just move to the next "project/failed guy" playing for relatively cheap!!! And maybe JJ shows us enough we give him a shot next year again (assuming Kyler plays good ball and stays healthy this year).

But what has scared me is the fact that the narrative going around the talk shows is that we screwed up not paying Darnold. I don't think we win a SB with Darnold, as I said in my last post. But the fact that the narrative around the media is we screwed up, makes paying (OVERPAYING) Kyler for a good year great money (that 40-50+ mill crazy money), which then of course ham strings us everywhere else. I just seeing that happening unfortunately.

You don't win a SB by overpaying players who are not elite. I just don't think Kyler is or will ever be. He's been good, nearly great, but not nearly good enough thus far in his career. Maybe a miracle strikes and he plays his best ball this year with a team that should have great weapons (too many drops last year).

[Monster]

For me it's not SB or bust, but I want to see a path to contention. I'm not sure Kyler is that player, I kind of doubt he is to be frank. Making the playoffs and getting whooped just doesn't do anything for me, show me a path to be a contender so I can get on board. My biggest fear is Kyler is just OK and we pay him big money, that will signal another 3-4 years wasted. You just can't win it all overpaying players.

It even goes back to when Teddy got hurt and they wasted (in my view) a 1st round pick in the next years draft on Bradford. I was fine riding with Hill and maybe just winning 5 games. Bradford was already being replaced by the Eagles. They had enough of him, Spielman the idiot gave up our next years first. I wanted to wait and draft a QB with that pick. Guess who went around where we could have been picking? Patrick freaking Mahomes is who! We could have drafted Mahomes and likely won a SB or multiple SB's! Myself I like Deshaun Watson who also went like 12th that draft and of course played like a baller till his massage fiasco. Heck maybe we win it all with Watson? Zim had a good to great D most years, heck we went to the NFC champ game with Keenum. With Mahomes or Watson guess what? Who knows? Not sucking balls and getting blown out is what.

Then that turns into overpaying Kirk since we were drafting late and had no QB. And on the story goes. No SB, no path to one either.

I think it's fair to be worried about them overpaying Wentz and being stuck in a way. I think you have to look at the KOC era and they really haven't been willing to pay anyone crazy money. Are they really gonna be willing to give Murray like 50 million a year or something? Maybe but I kinda doubt it.

I also think that Rob B is probably gonna get the GM job. I think he seems to be more careful with spending and assets. That's definitely been the case this off-season which isn't exactly a surprise. I don't think he will be a guy that doesn't go for it at all but I think he is gonna be more careful in some ways. He has seen how it's gone down all the things you mentioned and more.

One of the biggest assets of the organization is KOC has made vet QBs better than they were. If he does it with Murray why pay him a boatload of money? Sign another failed starter et.c..assuming McCarthy isn't the guy. It's like having Zimmer as your DC and then spending a 1st round pick on a CB every year. Why is the genius getting high end draft picks every year? He should be able to get more out of guys than having a high end draft picks all the time. I'm not saying you shouldn't draft good players but...yeah. It would also be nice to see some more wins on offense in terms of undervalued position players having success. Nailor is one. I can't think of anyone else that really stands out. I'm a big fan of Xavier Scott at RB but idk if he is more than just a decent depth guy that you can roster on a PS. If he was a really worthwhile special teams guy that can kinda do a little of everything when he gets snaps at RB I would call that a win but it's not exactly a big win. Maybe Tai Felton or someone else will break through at WR. Maybe Brandel will be a really solid C this year. Maybe a TE like Ben Sims shows he is a pretty good player in the same idea that Mundt was a higher end depth guy. I think Sims has a higher end as a Receiver though but maybe not at everything else. QB is a pretty big deal and if KOC can get a ton of value out of that position I'll take it but it feels like we should be getting more elsewhere too. It does seem like they have added some more coaches on the offensive side of the ball which may help.

That's exactly my thought! Why pay Kyler a bunch just move to the next "project/failed guy" playing for relatively cheap!!! And maybe JJ shows us enough we give him a shot next year again (assuming Kyler plays good ball and stays healthy this year).

But what has scared me is the fact that the narrative going around the talk shows is that we screwed up not paying Darnold. I don't think we win a SB with Darnold, as I said in my last post. But the fact that the narrative around the media is we screwed up, makes paying (OVERPAYING) Kyler for a good year great money (that 40-50+ mill crazy money), which then of course ham strings us everywhere else. I just seeing that happening unfortunately.

You don't win a SB by overpaying players who are not elite. I just don't think Kyler is or will ever be. He's been good, nearly great, but not nearly good enough thus far in his career. Maybe a miracle strikes and he plays his best ball this year with a team that should have great weapons (too many drops last year).

I don't know if what all the talk shows match up with what the Vikings will do. Keep in mind the last 2 QBs they did make legit offers to keep them but they left for more money. I think if they had really wanted to keep Darnold they could have easily matched that contract Seattle gave him or maybe even got him for a little less. 30ish million a year for a pretty good QB to me is perfectly fine. So even with what happened with Darnold I'm not convinced the Vikings are gonna just pay up for Murray and if they do I doubt they are gonna give him a deal for more than 3 years and it still probably won't be a fully guaranteed deal. Murray has had some issues staying healthy.

I do think your concern for overpaying him has merit though. That definitely could happen. Part of that is going to depend on 2 things.

1. Who is the GM? I tend to think Rob B will be more cautious to sign a guy for like 50 million.

2. What does ownership want? Could ownership have been part of the push to acquire Theilen last year? Maybe? I could see it or maybe it just made plenty of sense for what was basically a mid-ish round pick. That trade didn't work out but I actually thought the Panthers wouldn't trade him for that value. Theilen wanted to go back and that's why the deal happened. If that wasn't the case it wouldn't have crossed the finish line for either side. Anyway if Ownership wants to chase a Superbowl with Murray as the guy they may want that. We know the Vikings ownership is about being competitive and while I get that sometimes bottoming out makes sense I'm not sure in the NFL it does as much...depending on your organization. KOC ability with QBs changes things. If the Browns were able to turn former starters into worthwhile QBs then they wouldn't be the biggest QB joke of the past 30+ years. For all the shit people talk about Cousins he is better than almost any QB Cleveland has had in that time frame. That's why he has been getting paid.

It will be interesting to see what the Vikings can get done in this upcoming draft. While I don't think the draft has been quite the disaster (aside from year one) as many fans say, it probably isn't even as good as when Spielman was the guy making final decisions. The Vikings over that time actually had a pretty good rate of hitting on players during his time. Of course his lack of finding a young QB loomed large. He did a lot of other good stuff especially since he didn't have the QB to make the Vikings pretty competitive during that time. He also made a lot of wise decisions letting players go either in FA in trades. Again he had missteps too but there are way more disastrous GMs during that time than Rick. Solid drafting including this one where they have some pretty good draft capital would go a long ways. They also have been doing well with those undrafted guys so hopefully they can find someone there.

[Wolvesfan21]

I think it's fair to be worried about them overpaying Wentz and being stuck in a way. I think you have to look at the KOC era and they really haven't been willing to pay anyone crazy money. Are they really gonna be willing to give Murray like 50 million a year or something? Maybe but I kinda doubt it.

I also think that Rob B is probably gonna get the GM job. I think he seems to be more careful with spending and assets. That's definitely been the case this off-season which isn't exactly a surprise. I don't think he will be a guy that doesn't go for it at all but I think he is gonna be more careful in some ways. He has seen how it's gone down all the things you mentioned and more.

One of the biggest assets of the organization is KOC has made vet QBs better than they were. If he does it with Murray why pay him a boatload of money? Sign another failed starter et.c..assuming McCarthy isn't the guy. It's like having Zimmer as your DC and then spending a 1st round pick on a CB every year. Why is the genius getting high end draft picks every year? He should be able to get more out of guys than having a high end draft picks all the time. I'm not saying you shouldn't draft good players but...yeah. It would also be nice to see some more wins on offense in terms of undervalued position players having success. Nailor is one. I can't think of anyone else that really stands out. I'm a big fan of Xavier Scott at RB but idk if he is more than just a decent depth guy that you can roster on a PS. If he was a really worthwhile special teams guy that can kinda do a little of everything when he gets snaps at RB I would call that a win but it's not exactly a big win. Maybe Tai Felton or someone else will break through at WR. Maybe Brandel will be a really solid C this year. Maybe a TE like Ben Sims shows he is a pretty good player in the same idea that Mundt was a higher end depth guy. I think Sims has a higher end as a Receiver though but maybe not at everything else. QB is a pretty big deal and if KOC can get a ton of value out of that position I'll take it but it feels like we should be getting more elsewhere too. It does seem like they have added some more coaches on the offensive side of the ball which may help.

That's exactly my thought! Why pay Kyler a bunch just move to the next "project/failed guy" playing for relatively cheap!!! And maybe JJ shows us enough we give him a shot next year again (assuming Kyler plays good ball and stays healthy this year).

But what has scared me is the fact that the narrative going around the talk shows is that we screwed up not paying Darnold. I don't think we win a SB with Darnold, as I said in my last post. But the fact that the narrative around the media is we screwed up, makes paying (OVERPAYING) Kyler for a good year great money (that 40-50+ mill crazy money), which then of course ham strings us everywhere else. I just seeing that happening unfortunately.

You don't win a SB by overpaying players who are not elite. I just don't think Kyler is or will ever be. He's been good, nearly great, but not nearly good enough thus far in his career. Maybe a miracle strikes and he plays his best ball this year with a team that should have great weapons (too many drops last year).

I don't know if what all the talk shows match up with what the Vikings will do. Keep in mind the last 2 QBs they did make legit offers to keep them but they left for more money. I think if they had really wanted to keep Darnold they could have easily matched that contract Seattle gave him or maybe even got him for a little less. 30ish million a year for a pretty good QB to me is perfectly fine. So even with what happened with Darnold I'm not convinced the Vikings are gonna just pay up for Murray and if they do I doubt they are gonna give him a deal for more than 3 years and it still probably won't be a fully guaranteed deal. Murray has had some issues staying healthy.

I do think your concern for overpaying him has merit though. That definitely could happen. Part of that is going to depend on 2 things.

1. Who is the GM? I tend to think Rob B will be more cautious to sign a guy for like 50 million.

2. What does ownership want? Could ownership have been part of the push to acquire Theilen last year? Maybe? I could see it or maybe it just made plenty of sense for what was basically a mid-ish round pick. That trade didn't work out but I actually thought the Panthers wouldn't trade him for that value. Theilen wanted to go back and that's why the deal happened. If that wasn't the case it wouldn't have crossed the finish line for either side. Anyway if Ownership wants to chase a Superbowl with Murray as the guy they may want that. We know the Vikings ownership is about being competitive and while I get that sometimes bottoming out makes sense I'm not sure in the NFL it does as much...depending on your organization. KOC ability with QBs changes things. If the Browns were able to turn former starters into worthwhile QBs then they wouldn't be the biggest QB joke of the past 30+ years. For all the shit people talk about Cousins he is better than almost any QB Cleveland has had in that time frame. That's why he has been getting paid.

It will be interesting to see what the Vikings can get done in this upcoming draft. While I don't think the draft has been quite the disaster (aside from year one) as many fans say, it probably isn't even as good as when Spielman was the guy making final decisions. The Vikings over that time actually had a pretty good rate of hitting on players during his time. Of course his lack of finding a young QB loomed large. He did a lot of other good stuff especially since he didn't have the QB to make the Vikings pretty competitive during that time. He also made a lot of wise decisions letting players go either in FA in trades. Again he had missteps too but there are way more disastrous GMs during that time than Rick. Solid drafting including this one where they have some pretty good draft capital would go a long ways. They also have been doing well with those undrafted guys so hopefully they can find someone there.

Sure, but what is your bar? Above avg win rate for 15 years but no SB appearances? Realistically no real chance either other then 09. 09 was one team where OK, we had a legit shot. Outside of that we were never a contender.